11th of May, 1320

Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac,
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne,

Arnaud du Carla, of the order of Preachers of the convent of Pamiers,

Bernard de Centelles, monk of Fontfroide

David, monk of Fontfroide

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary

Witness against Guillaume Autast of Ornolac on the accusation of heresy

The year of the Lord 1320, the 11th of May. Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac, a sworn witness, interrogated as to whether the Guillaume Autast mentioned above held certain heretical propositions, said:

About four years ago, I was in my house in Ornolac, and Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre Monier of Ornolac was at home with me; Guillaume Autast came by and there were a few other people whose names I do not recall. We were near the fire and we started to talk about God and the universal resurrection. Among other things, we said that God must have great power and great virtue, to be able to give to each human soul upon resurrection its own body. Upon hearing this, Guillaume said: "And you believe that God has made as many souls as there are men and women! This is certainly not so, but when at the time of death the souls depart the bodies in which they are dwelling, they enter into the body of infants who are just being born and thus they leave one body to enter into another." He said this was because if each soul were to receive back its own body and each one had one of its own, and since the world has lasted for many years, it would be completely filled with souls, with a result that they could not be contained between Toulouse and Mérens. In effect, although souls are not large, there would be so many people that they could not be contained between these two locales. When he said that, Alazaïs took me by the arm and held me tight, and when, a minute later, Guillaume had left the house, she said, "O my good friend, these are evil beliefs that Guillaume holds!" and I told her that they were indeed very wrong.

Why have you hidden this for such a long time?

I did not believe that it was as serious as it is, but this year, urged on by my conscience, I revealed this to Bernard Peyreou, the priest of Ornolac, so that he could counsel me as to what I should do about this, and he told me to reveal it to My Lord the Bishop of Pamiers. And thus, urged on by my conscience, I have done it.

Have you seen Guillaume take communion or otherwise do what good and faithful Christians do?

I have lived in Ornolac for twelve years, and I have never seen this Guillaume take communion, even when sick, nor on feast days, when we are accustomed to take communion. But I have seen him enter the church. And also my sister is his god-mother. When he lived in Lordat, where he was born, he was a usurer. Since he has been in Ornolac, he has no longer practiced usury, as far as I know.

Does he come from a heretical family?

Yes, his mother and sister died in the dungeon of the Wall of Carcassonne and his brother-in-law has fled because of heresy.

Have you deposed this for hate love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned?

She said no, but because it was the truth and did not say anything else pertinent.

26 May, 1320

Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac,
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne,

Pierre du Verdier, Archdeacon of Majorca

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary

After this year, the same year as above (1320) the 26th of May, the said

Gaillarde, wife of Bernard Rous, was cited this day and appeared before my said Lord Bishop at the episcopal seat of Pamiers, and was received as a witness against the said Guillaume Autast by My Lord the Bishop in cases touching the Catholic faith. Having taken the oath of witnesses, she said and deposed:

This year at the last feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist, someone stole some silver and things I have placed in a bureau, which was broken. I went to find Guillaume Autast, who was and still is the bailiff of Ornolac, and asked him to investigate this theft by virtue of his office and to help me recover my stolen things. He did not want to hear me and I went, crying and weeping to the church of Notre-Dame de Montgauzy, to ask for a miracle to recover my silver and my things; to help this happen, I walked with a candle around the altar of the said Saint Mary. Returning to Ornolac, I once again asked Guillaume to investigate this theft, but he did not want to be bothered. I told him that he had a duty to look for my money and my stolen things, just as he had sought the grain that had been stolen from him this year. He told me that he had recovered this grain, because he knew who had stolen it, but he did not know about my silver or my stolen things. I told him: "I have confidence in Saint Mary of Montgauzy, whom I visited and prayed to; she will return my silver and my stolen things and avenge me on the thieves if they do not make restitution. Guillaume then told me in the presence of several people from Ornolac, whom I don't remember, except for Julien of Ornolac, that Saint Mary did not have the power to return my silver and my things. I told him that she did, on the contrary and that he spoke badly and that Saint Mary would avenge me. He said that Saint Mary did not kill people nor cause their death.

I heard from Alazaïs Monier, my good friend, of Ornolac, this year during the feast of Easter, I do not remember the day, that she had been afflicted because she had lost four of her children in a short time. Guillaume, seeing her thus desolate and afflicted, asked her why she was so upset. She told him: "Do I not have good reason to be sad and doleful, I who have lost in a short time four beautiful children?" She told him as well that it would be in paradise, and not in this world, that she believed she would see them and find them again. He told her that, on the contrary, it would be in this world, because she was pregnant and the soul of one of the dead children would reincarnate itself in the fruit of her womb and it would happen thus successively with each of the souls of her dead children, when she was pregnant.

This Guillaume, although he had the appearance of good health during last Lent, because he was working, and no sickness kept him at home, was preparing in his house and eating meat during several days of Lent. And I heard tell at Ornolac that he had eaten meat during all of Lent.

I do not know anything else and have not heard anything else said, other than what I have deposed.

(Interrogated as to whether it was prayer, or payment or anything else she said no.)

About two years ago, I was talking to Alazaïs den Bordas of Ornolac and we were talking about Guillaume. She told me: "Look at the sort of person Guillaume is: the other day, as we were crossing the Ariège which was flooding its banks by boat, we were afraid of drowning and I especially since I was pregnant. I told him this and he told me that one may as well die there as anywhere else."

This confession or deposition was made the same year and day as above, in the presence of Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, of the order of Preachers of the convent of Pamiers, of Pierre du Verdier, Archdeacon of Majorca and of Master Guillaume PeyreBarthe, notary of My Lord the Bishop, who has received it and written it.

26 May, 1320

Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre Monier of Ornolac,
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne,

Pierre du Verdier, Archdeacon of Majorca

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary

The same day and year as above, Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre Monier of Ornolac, a sworn witness was interrogated concerning that which precedes, and said:

About four years ago, I went to the house of Gaillarde, wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac, and I found there Gaillarde herself, Guillaume Autast and another person whose name I do not recall, nor even whether it was a man or woman. We were near the fire, and we began to talk of the end of the world and the universal resurrection. It seemed to me that Guillaume said that people were stupid to believe that each human body had its own soul, which would be returned to it upon resurrection. This was not the case, he said, but when a soul leaves a body, it enters into another body. And if there were as many human souls as there are bodies, the world would be filled with human souls. Upon hearing this, I was stupefied, and took the arm of Gaillarde, and when Guillaume had left I took her arm again and said: "Holy Mary, what an evil belief this man holds!" Gaillarde told me that it was an evil belief and I myself said I wished that I had not even been present.

Did this Guillaume lead a good life?

Many people said he was a usurer. But I have seen him receive the body of Christ.

Is he from a heretical family?

Yes, his mother and his sister died in the dungeon of the Wall at Carcassonne and his brother-in-law has fled for heresy.

Have you born witness out of hate, love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned?

She said no, but because it was the truth and did not say anything else pertinent.

15 July, 1320

Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre Monier of Ornolac,
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne,

Pierre du Verdier, Archdeacon of Majorca

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary

After this the same year as above, the 15th of July, the said Alazaïs, wife of Pierre Monier, was once again produced and received as a witness, and having taken the oath of witnesses, she said:

About two years ago, I had lost four boys in quick succession and I was desolate and greatly afflicted because of it. One day, Guillaume came back from his work in the fields and saw me in great affliction before the door of my house and asked me why I was so sad. I told him it was because I had just lost four beautiful children. He told me that I should not grieve myself over this, because I would find them again. I told him that it was in paradise and not in this world that I believed and hoped to see them again. He told me the contrary that it would be in this world, because when I was pregnant the souls of my dead sons would be reincarnated in the children about to be born from my womb and that is how I would find them again in this world.

Who was with you?

I no longer recall if there was anyone else.

Where and when did this happen?

As I have said.

This year, I no longer recall the day, after Raimond de la Côte and the woman Agnes, the heretics, were burned, Guillaume was at the door of his house and I also. He said that the Bishop of Pamiers was a haughty and severe man; I told him that he was able to do many things, because he had great power. He told me then that if Raimond and Agnes had been heard and if they had had an audience with the bishop only, the bishop would have found it worthwhile to do more than just burn them. I told him that this was not for us to judge and he entered at once into his house.

I heard Julien of Ornolac say that since Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac, complained to Guillaume Autast, the bailiff, of the theft of certain things in her bureau and that he did not wish to investigate, she said that she asked Saint Mary of Montgauzy to inspire the heart of the thieves to return her things to her and to avenge them. Guillaume said and Julien heard it, that Saint Mary was not able to see that these things would be returned to this Gaillarde.

This year, this Guillaume, being strong and in good health, and doing his work, ate meat for all of Lent just up until Palm Sunday and I saw him several times. One day where his brother, Bernard Autast of Lordat, came to Ornolac and reprimanded him because he was eating meat Wednesdays and Saturdays, and during Lent, the said Guillaume, who was holding a bowl of meat before him told his brother that it wouldn't be long before he stabbed him in the chest. And I saw and heard this. On this subject, the curé of Ornolac sent Alazaïs Bordas to tell him that it displeased him that he was eating meat during Lent, since he was strong and he was working.

And she said nothing more pertinent. Interrogated as to whether she had made this deposition out of hatred, love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned, she said no, but because it was the truth.

This deposition was given the year and day and those present as above.

15 July, 1320 ?

Raimond Barrau, cleric of Ornolac,
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

Raimond Barrau, cleric of Ornolac, having sworn on the holy Gospels of God said against this Guillaume:

This year during the week of Easter, I was in the house of Mathende d'Alzen, and Guillaume Autast was also there as well as two other people whose names I do not recall. He began to talk about the fact that Bernard, the vicar of Ornolac, had said to the people of the place that they had made much smaller offerings than usual during Easter and that he had reproached them for this. Guillaume added then that the priests cannot force anyone to do anything other than make an offering, and it was sufficient if the people offered a piece of fringe, or even a small bit of bread or some straw; one cannot force the people to offer anything else.

And he said nothing else pertinent.

Interrogated as to whether he had made this deposition out of hatred, love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned, he said no, but because it was the truth.

15 July, 1320 ?

Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre do Bordas of Ornolac
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

The year and day as above, Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre do Bordas of Ornolac, a sworn witness interrogated concerning that which precedes and other facts touching the Catholic faith, against this Guillaume Autast, said:

About two years ago, towards Pentecost, my husband was weeding the bad plants from his grain on property which he owns on the other side of the Ariège. One day, I crossed the Ariège, which was in high flood, with some others. Returning by boat, I was greatly frightened while crossing the Ariège. I was at Guillaume Autast's house, very upset and distraught. He asked me why I was upset. I told him that I was extremely afraid of being drowned in that boat. He told me: "Why were you afraid?It would do for you to die there as anywhere else." I told him it would not be the same to die suddenly and without confession than otherwise, with confession and all that a Good Christian ought to do; he was quiet and did not make any response to this.

Who was present when he said this to you?

I do not recall; the other people in Guillaume's house were going about their business in the house.

This year, when the heretic Raimond de la Côte had been condemned for heresy by My Lord the Bishop and burned as a result, Guillaume told me as well as Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac, in his house, that this Raimond de la Côte, if one had listened to and received his reasons, should have not have been condemned or burned and the proceedings against him had been badly done, because he was a good cleric.

I heard tell at Ornolac that this Gaillarde had lost silver and other things and that Guillaume, the local bailiff, did not wish to investigate the theft. On this subject, Gaillarde said to Guillaume that Saint Mary of Montgauzy, whom she had seen, would return her money and her things to her and avenge the theft of this money and the rest of it. Guillaume told her that Saint Mary could not recover her things and return them to her.

I heard Guillaume say, about a year ago, while I was combing flax at his house and we were talking of the dead, and the good which souls enjoy in the next world, that the soul of a man or a woman who has had good fortune in this world cannot have it in the next, and that whoever had misfortune in this world will not have any more in the next, because it is necessary that one has either good fortune or bad fortune, either in this world or in the next.

Who was present?

Myself, and Barcelone, the wife of the late Bernard de Bordas. But I do not know if she heard it.

And she said nothing else pertinent. Interrogated as to whether she had made this deposition out of hatred, love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned, she said no, but because it was the truth.

15 July, 1320

Julien of Ornnolac
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

The same year and day as above (July 15, 1320), Julien of Ornnolac, a sworn witness interrogated on that which precedes and other facts touching the Catholic faith against the said Guillaume Autast, said:

I know of nothing, unless it was this year, around the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist, I heard him say that Saint Mary could not see to it that the things that had been stolen from Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous, would be returned. He told this to Gaillarde and I heard him. As for the rest, I know nothing.

15 July, 1320

Barcelone, Widow of Bernard de Bordas of Ornolac
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

The same year and day as above (July 15, 1320), Barcelone, the widow of Bernard de Bordas of Ornolac, sworn witness interrogated concerning that which precedes and other facts touching the faith against Guillaume Autast, said:

I heard him say one time, in the courtyard of his house and in mine that after a man or a woman dies one time, he will never be raised again.

When was this?

I do not remember.

Who was present?

I do not remember.

I have often heard him say that those men and women who have had good fortune in the present life cannot have anything other than bad fortune in the next, and those who have bad fortune in the present life will not have such in the next life, but rather good fortune.

After the feast of the Saints Philip and James the apostles, when the heretic Raimond de la Côte was burned, I heard Guillaume say that this Raimond was a good man and that if his reasons had been accepted by My Lord the Bishop of Pamiers, he would not have been burned.

I heard him say that it sufficed for us to make offering to the church of the value of one picte and we were not obliged to offer any more, nor could anyone force us to do so.

This year at Lent, he ate meat for five weeks, although he could have abstained from it without any danger to his health during this time, since he went about his house, the village, and the whole area and looked after his affairs.

Interrogated as to whether she had made this deposition out of hatred, love, fear, prayer, prompted by a salary or otherwise suborned, she said no, but because it was the truth and did not say anything else pertinent.

28 July, 1320

Pierre de Bordas of Ornolac
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

The same year as above (1320), the 28th of July, Pierre de Bordas of Ornolac, a sworn witness interrogated concerning that which precedes and other facts touching the faith against Guillaume Autast, said:

This year, after the heretic Rarimond de la Côte was burned by My Lord the Bishop of Pamiers and the Inquisitor of Carcassonne, when the news arrived at Ornolac, I myself, and Barcelone the wife of the late Bernard de Bordas, Alazaïs my wife and this Guillaume Autast were seated at the table and he said that this heretic Raimond who had been burned was a good cleric and one of the best in all Christendom and it would have been better for Sabarthès if My Lord the Bishop of Pamiers who had condemned him had been burned, rather than this Raimond.

Did you hear Guillaume say that this heretic was a Good Christian and a holy man, and that if justice had been done to him he would never have been burned?

I do not remember.

When he said these words, that it would have been better for Sabarthès if My Lord the Bishop was burned rather than this heretic, you who heard this, did you say anything in reply, either to approve or disapprove or to blame him for these words?

I said nothing in reply, but it seemed to me that he was speaking badly.

I have often heard him say that the soul of every man, before coming to the kingdom of heaven passes through the fire or purgatory and he also said the same about the souls of small children that depart from the bodies of baptized children. He said that he had heard this said, but he did not say by whom.

Who was present when he said this?

I do not remember.

Where did this take place?

At Ornolac, but I do not remember if it was in the street or in a house.

And he did not wish to say anything more, although interrogated diligently.

15 July, 1320 ?????

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac
Sworn Witness

Bishop's palace of Pamiers ?

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers ?

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne ?

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

Confession of Guillaume Autast, a converted heretic

The year of the Lord 1320, the 15th of July. Since it has come to the attention of the Reverend Father in Christ My Lord Jacques, by the Grace of God Bishop of Pamiers that Guillaume Autast of Ornolac has said and affirmed before many people that each human soul does not have a unique body, but that when the soul leaves one body, it enters into another, and also that each soul will not return to its own body at the resurrection; that he has said that each soul will not be recompensed or punished according to the manner in which it comported itself while embodied, and that the body itself will not await to see if its soul is saved or damned; that he has said that if each soul had its own body and if the souls were not reincarnated in other bodies, that even though souls are quite small in their dimensions, the earth would be filled with just the souls of the dead of Sabarthès from Toulouse to Mérens, if we were to consider that souls are corporeal; that he has said that the Church cannot force anyone to offer a predetermined sum at mass, but it would suffice to offer straw to the priest; since he is reputed to be a believer, instigator and concealer of the Manicheans and according to what precedes, a member of their sect; and since my said lord the bishop, after having been informed, wished to inquire concerning this subject and that which precedes and other facts touching the Catholic faith, of which he is strongly suspected; he had him cited for the present day. The said Guillaume appeared before My Lord the Bishop, assisted by Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for My Lord the Inquisitor of Carcassonne, and was interrogated simply and without oath if he held these heretical propositions, had taught them and believed them. He said

no.

And My Lord the Bishop, wishing to bring him back to the faith and deliver him from peril, gave him a delay to reflect upon that which precedes, just until the next day at vespers. And since the said Guillaume said that it was his enemies who had denounced what he had said, My Lord the Bishop asked him who it was he considered to be his enemies. He said: the curé of Ornolac and his vicar, and no one else.

16 July, 1320 ?????

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

The next day, at the hour of vespers, the said Guillaume appeared in the Chamber of the bishop before my said Lord Bishop, assisted by the said Brother Gaillard de Pomiès. He took an actual oath to tell the pure and entire truth, without mixing in any falsity and as much concerning himself as charged as concerning others as witness, on the heretical articles which precede and other facts touching the Catholic faith; and he was informed again in the vulgar tongue of the articles relating to his detention.

He responded to the first article that he had never said or believed that each human soul does not have its own body.

On the second article, he said that he had never said nor believed that the human soul, when it leaves its own body, enters, then or ever, into another body.

On the third article, he said that he believed that the human soul will rise again and rejoin the flesh and the bones that it had had in this lower world and that he had never said or believed the contrary.

On the fourth article, he said that at the universal Judgment the soul would be recompensed or punished in the same body it had had in the present life and that he had never said or believed the contrary.

On the fifth article, he said that he had never said that if each man who had ever lived or who would live, had his own unique soul, the country would be full from Toulouse to Mérens of all the souls of the men of Sabarthès past and present.

On the sixth article, he said he never said that Raimond the heretic was a Good Christian.

On the seventh article, he said that he had indeed said, citing a word that he had heard from a man of Châteauverdun who himself was citing the Epistle to the Romans, that the Church could not force anyone to offer a specific sum, but it sufficed simply to offer something, no matter how small. But this man had not said that he was of this opinion, or that he was engaged in not offering a suitable or decent amount.

What was the name of this man of Châteauverdun?

I do not know.

When did you hear the words of this man?

This year.

Who was present?

I no longer remember.

Have you seen any heretics, have you believed in them, have you received them in your house, have you been their accomplice?

No.

And since it seemed, based on information received, that the said Guillaume had not told the truth regarding heresy and the articles which precede, and that he had not avowed them, my said Lord Bishop arrested him and order him to be sent at once to the prison of the château des Allemans, designated for people such as he, warning him not to leave the château without the authorization of My Lord the Bishop.

11 August, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

After this, the same year as above (1320), the 11th of August, the said Guillaume Autast, appearing judicially in the Chamber of the bishop before my said Lord Bishop assisted by Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, said and avowed:

About three or four years ago, I do not remember the exact time or day, I was at home in Ornolac, and Bartholomée, the wife of Arnaud d'Urs, of Vicdessos who lived in the house, or Alazaïs, the wife of Pierre de Bordas, had lost a son that she had found dead in the bed next to her. I do not remember which of the two woman it was who had lost her son. And since this woman was crying and desolate over the death of her son, when I saw her and heard her, I told her not to cry and be desolate, that she would conceive and have another one, or that its soul would be in a good place in the next world.

What did you mean when you said that God would sent the soul of the dead child to a son or daughter that she would conceive or bear in the future?

I meant by this that this woman would have compensation in another child, but this was not the sense of the words -- I said it as it came out.

Have you heard anyone say that souls, when they leave a human body enter into other human bodies, have you believed this in the past and do you believe it now?

I have never heard anyone say this, I have not believed it, nor do I believe it now.

Have you ever said this or the equivalent to anyone besides this Bartholomée or Alazaïs?

I do not remember having said it, nor this, nor the equivalent.

About a year and a half ago, I was in the main square of Ornolac, and there were with me, I think, Raimond d'Ornolac, Pierre Doumenc, Pons Barrau, Guillaume d'Aspira, Pierre de Gathlepa, Bertrand Deville, and Raimond Benet the small (I do not remember the others) and someone began to talk of this, I do not remember who it was, asking what place could hold such a quantity of souls of men as die each day and I replied that if it were as big as a house built from Toulouse to Mérens, paradise must be even bigger, to receive such a quantity of souls.

18 August, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

After this, the year as above (1320), the 18th of August, Guillaume...said and avowed:

About two and a half years ago, the day of the first visit of My Lord the Bishop to Sabartès at the church of Saint-Martin d'Ussat, the child of Alazaïs Monier of Ornolac had been burned in a fire. He had been sent because of the child who was burned, and by another who was also burned, in the house of Bernard Monier of Ornolac. And this Alazaïs was weeping for her dead son. I came by and went into her house to console her for the death of her son and told her: "My good friend, do not mourn and be sorrowful, because you will meet the soul of your dead son again." She told me that she would meet him again in paradise. I told her, on the contrary, in a son or daughter that she would conceive and give birth to, because she was still young and that if she did not meet these souls again in a son or a daughter, she would find them in paradise.

29 August, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

After this, the same year as above (1320), the 29th of August, the said Guillaume....said and avowed:

About eight years ago, it seems to me, my mother Guillemette d'Autast, was cited by My Lord the Inquisitor of Carcassonne and accused of heresy, and when she learned of this, on a market day, I went to Lordat to accompany my said mother, who was to go to Carcassonne. Then while I was at her house in Lordat, and we were seated alone before the fire, I asked her if she thought she was guilty of heresy, since she had been cited by the Inquisitor and she told me yes. I asked her: "And how? Have you seen any heretics?" She told me yes, Pierre Authié and Prades Tavernier, in the house of Arnaud den Auvergnat at Lordat. I asked her why and how she had gone to this house to see these heretics. She said that one night, she was at the door of her house and Guillemette, the wife of Arnaud Teisseyre came by, along with the doctor of Lordat, daughter of Pierre Authié, and Raimond Sabatier of Lordat, who was with her. And Raimond said to my mother: "Come, accompany Guillemmet den Teissyre" and my mother responded that she would do it gladly. They went together, that is to say, my mother, Guillemette, and Raimond and went to the house of this Auvergnat, and then into a room of the house where the heretics were. Near the door of the room, Raimond asked my mother if she wished to see the holy men and at once the door opened and they entered into the chamber, where they found Pierre Authié and Prades Tavernier, the heretics, which the said Guillemette adored in the heretical manner, and then the said Raimond Sabatier. And the two of them, after having adored the heretics, told my mother to adore them as they themselves had done. Guillemette said that the gentleman was her father and they had taught her how to adore them. And then my mother, instructed by them, adored these heretics, after which they stayed with them. Pierre Authié preached and, among other things, according to what my mother said, he said that when the souls of infants leave their bodies after death, they enter at once into the bodies of children that are engendered and conceived after the death of the first children, when the mother of the dead children has other children later.

adored

reincarnation

The heretic also said, according to my mother, that each human soul does not have a specific body, because if this were the case, the world would barely contain the quantity of souls of all the people in existence and those who had ever lived, and that even though souls are very small in size, there are so many living and dead men that their souls could not be contained in the world if each soul had a unique body and did not enter into another body than the one it had had the first time.

My mother told me, it seems to me, that the heretic said that human bodies, after death, will not be raised up and revived and she also told me many other things, which I do not recall. After this sermon of the heretic to the persons above-mentioned, he gave them bread blessed by himself, bread which my mother did not eat, but which she put into a hole.

no resurrection

blessed bread

When my mother told me this, I asked her: "And have you believed or do you believe that what this heretic said is true?" She told me that she did not believe it, nor did she doubt it. I asked her if she had seen these heretics anywhere else and if she had given them anything. She said that she had only seen them that one time, but she had given them a flagon of wine and a round loaf and sent them by Mengarde, the daughter of Arnaud den Auvergnat, when she had asked for wine and bread for these heretics and had found nothing to buy for them at Lordat.

That night we talked no more about this and the next day I went with my mother towards Carcassonne, and along the way I talked with her about what precedes. When Raimond Sabatier was arrested on an accusation of heresy, and was incarcerated at Montgrenier, I was bringing a warrant that he had dispensed on my account for 50 Toulousan sous and I went to Lordat to speak to Pierre Sabatier, his son. Upon arriving there, I took him outside the town and asked him if Raimond, his father, who was detained at Montgrenier, was guilt of heresy. He told me yes. I asked him if his mother, Fabrissa, and he himself, Pierre, were also guilty and he told me yes. I then said to him: "And how did this happen?" He told me that his father and his mother had sheltered Pierre Authié, hidden in their basement, and that he himself, Pierre, his father and his mother had heard this heretic tell that amongst all types of humans, that is to say, Christians, Jews and pagans, some would be saved and that paradise would be filled by his hands and those of other other heretics, and that more of their sect would be saved than any other sect or way of living. He said also that paradise would only be filled very slowly, more because people persecuted those of their sect than for any other reason. And my sister Fabrisssa, wife of this Raimond Sabatier, told me the same thing or the equivalent. She told me this in her own house.

About twenty years ago, I was talking to Raimond Sabatier about a sermon that had been given by a religious in the city of Lordat and I was speaking very highly of it. He told that he if I wished, he would give a good sermon and he began to cite the Gospel. Hearing this, I told him that I did not wish to hear it, and I swore on my head that bad fortune would come to him as a result of these sermons. It was only that he was saying something heretical, that I did not wish to tolerate him.

And since I had heard these three heretical articles from my mother, to wit that the soul of children who die enter into other bodies of children who will be conceived and born, and that each human soul does not have a particular body and that there have been and will be so many human souls that the souls and the next world will be filled with souls; that in the end men will not be raised up after having died and been reduced to ashes, I began to doubt if what my mother had told me was true; it seemed to be sometimes that it was true, but sometimes not, but for two or three years I believed perfectly that this was true, what my mother had told me about these three articles as she had been instructed by Pierre Authié. And at the time when I held this belief, it seems that I said, in the house of Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous, while we were talking about the souls of the dead, and were saying that there were very many of them, since there were so many men living and dead, that each human soul could not have its own body, but that when it departed one body through death that it would enter into another body which was just born or conceived, because if each soul had its own body, there would be as many souls as there were bodies, since the world endures for such a long time, that they could barely be contained therein.

Was there anyone else present besides this Gaillarde when you said this?

I do not remember if there were any other people.

During the time that I held this belief, I said to Bartholomée, wife of Arnaud d'Urs of Vicdessos and to Alazaïs Monier of Ornolac, in separate places and circumstances that they would recover the souls of their dead sons in this world, because they would conceive other sons, and that these later children would return the souls of their dead children to them.

Have you said this, or equivalent words, to anyone else?

I do not remember.

30 August, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

(August 30th, at the bishop's palace, before the bishop and Gaillard de Pomimès.)

About six or seven years ago, I do not remember the exact time or day, I was in the cemetery of the church of Ornolac, and near the head of the church, between the midnave and the "chevet" or head, they were digging a grave to inter a dead person whose name I do not recall. And on this sepulchre there were many bones of the dead. Seeing these, I said, in the presence of many other people (whose names I do not recall) because a good portion of the population of the place was there: "The souls of the dead are said to return to the same bodies and bones that they lived in while they were souls of the men they were. How is it possible that the souls which once dwelt therein will return to these bones?" But I was merely asking a question.

Have you ever believed that human bodies cannot be raised up again?

Yes, almost all that year, as I have just said, but I did not believe it at other times, or the possibility of it. In any case, for two years, after having heard among other things from my mother that Pierre Authié the heretic had told her that human bodies will not be raised again, I found myself in doubt. And I asked myself if there will be or not be a resurrection of the body. Sometimes I was inclined to believe one thing and sometimes another. And sometimes I believed that there was no resurrection, acquiescing to what my mother had said, although I never believed it completely. Sometimes, I was of the contrary opinion, because I have heard this preached in church and also because Guillaume d'Alzinhac, a priest of Carbonne who stayed for sometime at Lordat with my mother, had told me that there will be a resurrection of all dead men and women. It was he who instructed me when I was young, and he lived with my mother at Lordat. The day when I said this at the cemetery, to wit: "How is it possible that the soul returns after death to the same body and bones of the man in which it dwelt, while alive?" I was talking in the same way while returning home and I said the same words, or the equivalent, to those that I said in the cemetery. And I persisted in this belief, to wit that the resurrection of dead men and women was impossible.

Who was present?

The two brothers Pierre Bordas and Jean Bordas, Barcelone, the widow of Bernard Bordas, Guillemette, my late wife and it seems to me I said this in the yard of my house.

At the time when I was of the belief that human souls, upon leaving one body, enter into another, I believed, in the same way I believed in the resurrection, that if a unique soul were to enter successively into many bodies, this soul would return only to the last body it dwelt in before resurrection, and that only the last man would be resurrected, but that the soul would not return to the other bodies it had dwelt in as well, no more than another soul and that the bodies would not be resurrected at all.

According to you, how many bodies could a soul enter into successively?

My mother told me that a soul could enter into seven or nine human bodies successively, and that she was taught this by the heretic Pierre Authié. And I myself believed that souls, having left human bodies, entered into others.

Have you believed what Pierre Sabatier and your sister Fabrissa taught you, to wit, that from all the human sects, Christians, Jews, pagans, certain souls will be saved and that paradise will be filled by the hands of Pierre Authié the heretic and others of his sect no matter what sect or belief they belong to, and that what is impeding the filling of paradise is the persecution of the sect of Pierre Authié by others?

No.

Have you believed that one can save one's soul in the sect of Pierre Authié?

No.

Have you given or sent anything to Pierre Authié or other heretics of his sect?

No.

Have you seen or adored them, have you said "Bless me" or have you eaten bread blessed by them?

I have not seen them since they left the Sabarthès to go to Lombardy, nor have I adored them, nor said "Bless me" to them and I have never eaten bread blessed by them.

Have you said or believed that those who have riches and temporal goods in this world cannot attain the heavenly kingdom in the next world?

I have indeed said that the rich and those who have temporal goods in the present world cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, just as the camel cannot enter through the eye of a needle, although I did not explain myself and while I spoke generally of all riches, I wish, both then and now, to speak of the rich that have evilly and unjustly acquired their riches and not of riches which are good and justly obtained. Just the same, for the poor, certain of them will be saved and others will perish.

Have you said and believed that all the souls of men that enter into the kingdom of heaven must pass first through the fire of purgatory?

I have indeed said this purely and simply, but I have always maintained and believed in my heart, although I have never expressed this orally, that the souls of young children baptized and also the souls of martyrs and saints do not pass through the fire of purgatory

31 August, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary ?

(The 31st of August, at the bishop's palace, before the bishop and Gaillard de Pomiès.)

One Sunday during the last year, after the heretic Raimond de la Côte was burned at Allemans, some people of Ornolac, to wit, Pons Barrau, Guillaume d'Aspira, Pierre Doumenc, Bernard Deville, Guillaume Foissac, Raimond of Ornolac, indeed all of Ornolac was at the center of town, near the elm tree, and talking of this heretic who had been burned. I arrived and said to them: "I will tell you about this affair. This man who was burned was a good cleric and there has never been a better one in this whole country, except for the Bishop of Pamiers; he consulted often with this bishop and he disputed with him and he believed in God, Saint Mary and all the saints and the seven articles of faith; he was a Good Christian. And because he believed this, there has been a great injustice done in having him burned." And then people asked me why he had been burned, if he was a Good Christian and a good cleric. I said that this was because he had said the Sovereign Pontiff could not absolve sins and he denied purgatory. It was for these reasons that he was burned.

Before I said this in the square at Ornolac, Raimond de Nan, who lives with Pierre Mir, the canon of Foix, had come to my house at Ornolac and said to me in the presence of Pierre Bordas of Ornolac, Arnaud Périer and Guillaume Garaud of Châteauverdun that a man had been burned at Allemans by the Bishop of Pamiers, of whom people were saying that he was a good cleric and that he talked long with the bishop, and believed in God and Saint Mary and all the saints and the seven articles of faith; that he was a Good Christian and that a great injustice had been done in burning him.

I added, for my part, that it would have been better for the Sabarthès if the Bishop of Pamiers had been burned instead of this man, because after this he would not be able to disperse our goods. I did not wish to say that the bishop was a heretic, but because he is reclaiming tithes of first fruits from the people of Sabarthès, it would be better that he had been burned than this heretic.

Did you believe then and do you believe now that it would have been better for Sabarthès if the bishop had been burned instead of Raimond de la Côte?

I believed it when I said these words and I remained in this belief for about a fortnight, but I did not believe it afterwards, nor do I believe it now.

If you have believed this then, have you believed and do you still believe that the bishop can legitimately collect tithes?

He can.

If you believe that he can, do you believe that the people of Sabarthès are acting legitimately in refusing to pay?

Although My Lords the bishop exact these tithes according to the law, those of Sabarthès are following their custom in contesting the legitimacy of these payments.

Since you believed, as stated above that it would be better etc. that My Lord the Bishop legitimately collects tithes, why did you believe that it would have been better for the Sabarthès if he had been burned instead of this heretic?

Because of the payments that he forces the people of this region to pay.

Did you know, when you said that this Raimond was a Good Christian and had been unjustly condemned that he had been condemned as a heretic by My Lord the Bishop and the Inquisitor of Carcassonne, and declared a heretic by legal procedure?

I knew well that he had been condemned as a heretic by my said lord the bishop and the Inquisitor, but it did not seem to me, to me nor to the others with whom I spoke, that he was a heretic, since he believed in God, in Saint Mary and all the saints and the seven articles of faith. For this reason, it seemed to me that this Raimond was a Good Christian and unjustly condemned. I believed it at that moment, but later when we reflected that My Lord the Bishop and the Inquisitor would not have condemned someone to death without just cause, it appeared to us that although he had been condemned somewhat unjustly, there was nonetheless some justice in their decision.

You have confessed to having heard that this Raimond had been condemned as a heretic, because he did not believe that My Lord the Pope can absolve sins and also because he denied the existence of purgatory. Have you believed then and do you still believe that because of these two articles which he refused to believe, this Raimond could have been and ought to have been condemned as a heretic?

At the moment when I said this, I did not believe it. But later, and now, I believe and I believe that for these two articles that he refused to believe he was able to and ought to have been justly condemned. I remained for about a fortnight in the belief that he had been condemned unjustly, because he refused to believe these two articles.

When you believed this, did you believe that to say that the pope cannot absolve sins and to deny purgatory in the next world are heresies?

During this fortnight, I was of the belief that these were not heresies, but before and after this fortnight, I believed and I still believe that to deny these two articles is a heresy, and that someone who does not believe these articles can be condemned justly as a heretic.

1 September, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Arnaud du Carla, of the order of Preachers of the convent of Pamiers

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary of the bishop

(The 1st of September, at the bishop's palace, before the bishop and Gaillard de Pomiès.)

About five years ago, I was at home, with Pierre Bordas, Alazaïs, his wife, and Barcelone, the widow of Bernard Bordas. We began to talk of the salvation of souls and I said that what the priests say is true, to wit, that it is necessary to confess all of our sins and to do restitution and return, as far as one is able, that which one has from other men against their will, if one wishes to be saved. And out of a hundred men there will be saved only ten, nor even ten in a million, because people will not confess their sins, either because they have forgotten them, or they are ashamed to do so; equally because they take a lot from other people; for these reason, out of many only a few will be saved, if what the priests say is true.

Did you believe then, and do you still believe that the priests tell the truth when they say this?

Yes.

If you knew yourself to be guilty of simple fornication and of having practiced usury and if you did not wish to confess nor restore these loans, even though you had the means to do so, would you believe yourself destined for eternal damnation if you died in that state?

Yes.

You have said that if each soul had its own unique body, the souls could barely be contained in the world, because even though they have very small dimensions, they would fill the world, in view of their number. You appear thus to believe that souls are corporeal. Do you in fact believe that human souls are corporeal, that they have corporeal members, such as hands, feet and all the other members?

When I said that, I believed that souls had the corporeal form of a man or woman and members just like those of a human body. But now, I believe that human souls are spirits who do not have members similar to those of a human body.

Do you believe that the saints in paradise can help the men who live in this world?

Yes.

Have you ever said the contrary?

This year, around Pentecost, when Gaillarde, the wife of Bernard Rous of Ornolac, had lost five sous that had been stolen from her coffer she complained to me, since I was the bailiff there. And since no one knew immediately who had committed this theft, this Gaillarde said that she had prayed to Saint Mary of Montgauzy to reveal to her the person who have committed the theft. I responded to her: "Would not Saint Mary be committing a graver sin if she denounced the person who has stolen your four sous, because by doing so she would bring this person to confusion and justice than if you never recuperated these four sous by Saint Mary?" I said this jokingly and I did not believe that Saint Mary would sin if she denounced the malefactor and myself I did not believe I would sin if I would denounce or even if I were to condemn him to death or if I would kill him on the order of my superior.

Have you ever confessed these heresies sacramentally or otherwise, until just now?

No, because I did not believe that I sinned in believing this and in persevering in this belief. But now, I recognize that I have sinned gravely in believing these errors and I ask humbly for absolution from the sentence of excommunication that I have incurred for these heresies that I have believed.

He said he was ready to perform all penance and undergo any punishment that my said Lord Bishop and the Inquisitor might judge beneficial to inflict on him by reason of the preceding facts. He reserved for himself, if he came to remember in the future that he had committed something else in the said matter, more than he had avowed here, or if he remembered that someone, living or dead, had committed something in the said matter to reveal it as soon as possible to my said Lord Bishop or his successors or to My Lord the Inquisitor. And my said Lord Bishop, seeing his humility and contrition, gave him absolution according to the forms of the Church for the sentence of excommunication that he had incurred by reason of the heresies that he had avowed, if at the same time he had fully and with all his heart confessed these heresies, if he would believe what the Roman Church preached and taught, now and in the future. Before according him this absolution, he received an abjuration from him and the oath that follows:

I, Guillaume Autast, appearing judiciarily before you, Reverend Father in Christ, Jacques, by the Grace of God Bishop of Pamiers, abjure entirely all heresy that rises against the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Roman Church, and all beliefs of heretics, of any sect condemned by the Roman Church, and especially of the sect which I followed, and all complicity, welcome, defense and frequenting of these heretics, under pain of punishment which is due in case of a relapse into the heresy here renounced judiciarily;

Item, I swear and promise to pursue according to my power the heretics of any sect condemned by the Roman Church and especially the sect that I followed, and the believers, followers, welcomers and defenders of these heretics, and those that I know or believe to be in flight for reason of heresy, and to have arrested and sent, according to my power, any heretic at all among them to my said Lord Bishop or to the Inquisitors of the heretical deviation at all times and in any place that I learn of the existence of the above said or one amongst them;

Item, I swear and promise to hold, guard and defend the Catholic faith which the Holy Roman Church preaches and observes;

Item, I swear and promise to obey and defer to the order of the Church, to My Lord the Bishop and the Inquisitors and to appear on the day and days assigned before them or their replacements, at all times and in whatever place that I receive the order or requisition on their part, by messenger or by letter or in some other way, to never flee not absent myself knowingly in a spirit of contumaciousness and to receive and accomplish according to my power the punishment and the penance that they may judge good to impose upon me. And to this effect I engage my person and all my goods.

Done in the presence of the said Lord Bishop, Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, Arnaud du Carla, of the order of Preachers of the convent of Pamiers, and of Master Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary of my said Lord Bishop, who has received and written that which precedes.

And I, Rainaud Jabbaud, cleric of Toulouse, sworn in the matter of the Inquisition, have, on the order of My Lord the Bishop, faithfully corrected the said confessions against the original.

3 September, 1320

Guillaume Autast of Ornolac

Episcopal Chamber of the Bishop's palace of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers

Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for the Inquisitor of Carcassonne

Arnaud du Carla, of the order of Preachers of the convent of Pamiers

Brother David, monk of Fontfroide

Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary of the bishop

Adalbert, notary of Gaillard de Pomiès

After this, the same year as above (1320), the 3rd of September, the said Guillaume Autast appeared judicially in the bishop's palace of Pamiers before my said Lord Bishop assisted by Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, substitute for My Lord the Inquisitor of Carcassonne. My Lord the Bishop read him in the vulgar tongue all the confessions above and asked him if everything that was avowed was true, as much against him as against the others. He said, yes, that he wished to persist in his confessions, asking mercy and non-judgment by reason of these facts, and he concluded in the said, affair, demanding sentence or mercy.

After this, the same year as above (1320) the said Guillaume Autast, cited..... and concluded the present affair.

And my said lords bishop and Inquisitor assigned to the said Guillaume a day to hear a definitive sentence, to wit the following Sunday, March 8, 1320 [1321 New calendar] before tierce at the house of the Preachers of Pamiers.

Done the same year and day as above, in the presence of Brothers Gaillard de Pomiès, Arnaud du Carla of the order of Preachers, Brother David, monk of Fontfroide, and myself Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, notary of my said Lord Bishop and Barthélemy Adalbert, notary of My Lord the Inquisitor, who have received the above confessions. On the Sunday assigned to him, the said Guillaume Autast appeared in the cemetery of Saint-Jean-Martyr, and was given sentence by My Lords the bishop and Inquisitor as follows: "Let all know.....See this sentence in the Book of the Sentences of the Inquisition of the heretical deviation."

This sentence was given to the said Guillaume Autast on March 8 in the cemetery.

And I, Rainaud Jabbaud, cleric of Toulouse, sworn in the matter of the Inquisition, have, on the order of My Lord the Bishop, faithfully corrected the said confessions against the original.

NOTES
Condemned to the dungeon of the Wall on March 8, 1320 [1321], his sentence has not been preserved.

He saw his penance commuted to wearing the crosses on January 17, 1329.