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Cathar Glossary
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Source Documents: Interrogation of Guillemette, Widow of Bernard
Benet d'Ornolac
Guillemette was clearly not a Cathar, but an ordinary rationalist
using elementary arguments to cast doubt on, and as she thought,
disprove the existence of the immortal soul.
Her position was much the same as that expounded in the Old Testament
- that human "life force" was a characteristic of the
blood, not an immaterial soul, so her real crime might have been
to read the bible.
Her sceptical arguments were not sophisticated, and she had the
good sense to repudiate them (as she openly admitted), as soon as
the Inquisition took an interest in her. More sophisticated contemorary
sceptics appear to have been more subtle - for example attributing
their changed opinions to miraculous visions, rather than the terror
of being burned alive.
CONFESSION OF GUILLEMETTE, WIDOW OF BERNARD BENET OF ORNOLAC
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In the year of our Lord 1319, the 11th of May, Alazaïs,
wife of Pierre Munier of Ornolac, sworn witness to the
event of the heretical words that its is said were uttered
by Guillemette, widow of Bernard Benet of Ornolac, said:
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A year ago, in relationship to the
present time in which I am testifying, when the leaves of
the elm trees grow, myself and Guillemette, widow of Bernard
Benet of Ornolac, were sitting under the elm of Ornolac, and
we were talking about this and that. Among other things, I
said, "May God guard your soul, and with
your body let God do what he will!" Guillemette said
to me, "Orca, orca1, what are you afraid of?" I
told her that I was afraid for my soul because we sin often,
and I asked her: "And you, aren't you afraid?" She
responded that she was not. I asked her why she was not afraid
for her soul, and she responded: "Arma, arma2, orca,
our soul is no more than blood." Hearing this, I told
her to never again say such a thing, for it could make misfortune
befall her. She responded that she would say it in front of
anyone she liked: "And what would happen to me, if I
said it?"
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"Idiot, idiot!" |
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That year, around Lent, I was in a
house that is next to Guillemette's house, and Raimond Benet,
her son-in-law, was in her house, and he was speaking to her
(I overheard it). He was saying: "Na pros femma, gardastz
la anima"; Guillemette responded: "Orc, orc, e quinha
anima? La anima no es mas la sanc3." Afterwards,
I spoke of these words to Raimond Benet, who repeated them
to me.
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"Good woman , preserve your soul!"
"Idiot, idiot, what soul? The soul is
nothing more than blood."
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Interrogated if it is by hatred…she said no4.
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The same year and day as above, Gentille, the daughter
of the late Guillaume Rous d'Ornolac, witness sworn
and interrogated on that which precedes, said:
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About a year ago, it seems to me, I
was in the garden I have at Ornolac, which is next to the
garden of Guillmette, the widow of Bernard Benet of Ornolac;
she was in her garden, and we began to speak about the dead
and the souls of the deceased.
She said then: "Arma, arma, yeu no veg re issyr dels
homes ni de las femmes can se moro. Que se yeu ne vis ysshir
s'alma o calque altra causa, yeu sabera que aquelo fos anima,
mays ara non veg reishir, e per acquo non se que es aquela
anima5." Based on these words, I believe and I believed
that she thought that the soul does not survive after the
death of the body.
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"The soul, the soul! Personally,
I don't see anything come out of men or women when they die.
If I saw the soul or some other thing come out, I would know
what the soul is, but so far I haven't seen anything come out,
and that is why I don't know what the soul is." |
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In the same place, she said that when men and woman live
in the present life, their life is but blood. I understood
by these words that she was saying that the soul is but blood.
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| I often heard her making
such remarks, in my house as well as elsewhere. |
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| Have you revealed this to
anyone? |
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| No. |
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| Do you believe that what
she said was true? |
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No.
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| Interrogated if it is by hatred…truth6. |
Standard formula |
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The same year as above, Raimond Benet of Ornolac,
witness sworn and interrogated on that which precedes, said:
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Less than a year ago, though I remember
neither the day nor the season, Guillemette, my mother-in-law,
and Raimonde, my wife, were sleeping together in my house,
while I slept in another. In the morning, my mother-in-law
told me that she and my wife
had heard something that cried "ha," and asked me
if I had heard it. I replied that no, I had not heard it,
but that cats often cry in this way when they fight with each
other. She told me that it could very well have been the soul
of a dead person, for she had heard tell that when souls are
not in a good place, they cry and go in the wind, and that
one can see them. I told her: "How can you say that one
can see the soul and that it goes in the wind?" She responded:
"You don't see that, when men die, one doesn't see them
do anything but exhale? This exhalation is nothing but wind.
If the soul were something other than this exhalation, one
would see something come out of the body. Now, one only sees
this exhalation; that is why the soul goes in the wind."
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| I often heard her say, when
one asked her to give alms for her soul: "Arma, arma!" |
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That year, I had cut the head off of
a goose, and that goose lived and cried still, until its blood
had left its body. Guillemette said: "The goose cried
as long as it had blood, and
the same thing would happen for a man or a woman: they would
live as long as they had blood." But I do not remember
having heard her say that the human soul is nothing but blood.
If I remember anything else, I will
come and find My Lord the Bishop, and
I will reveal it to him.
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Interrogated if it is by hatred…truth6.
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Standard formula |
| CONFESSION OF GUILLMETTE, WIDOW OF BERNARD
BENET |
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| The year of our Lord 1320, the 16th of July. Whereas
it came to the attention of Revered Father in Christ, My Lord
Jacques, by the Grace of God Bishop of Pamiers, that Guillemette,
the widow of Bernard Benet of Ornolac, had said in front of
divers persons that the human soul, while it is in the human
body, is but blood, and that when the man dies, only wind comes
out of the body; that after the death of the body, the human
soul ceases to exist, and is neither good or evil in its merits
or faults, but that it dies at the death of the body; whereas
My Lord Bishop had received information on these points, he
summoned her to his presence on Monday, the 15th of July. |
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On the said day, the said Guillemette appeared before him
in the Chamber of the Episcopal seat of Pamiers, and it was
asked of her by My Lord the Bishop simply, and without oath,
if she had said, in public, or in private, that which was
the purpose of taking her into custody, if she had believed
it or believed to be true. She said that she no longer remembered,
but wanted to think about it until the next day, a time of
reflection which My Lord the Bishop accorded to her until
the following morning.
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The next day, at the said hour, she appeared in the presence
of the said bishop, in the Chamber of the seat of Pamiers.
As she did not wish to admit to any of that which precedes
simply, the said Lord Bishop received from her physically
the oath to tell the truth, unmitigated by any falsehood,
on the above said events and other concerning the Catholic
faith, concerning herself as defendant and others, living
or dead, as a witness.
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This oath sworn, the said articles having been explained
to her anew in the common tongue, she denied having said or
believed them in totality or in part. And immediately My said
Lord Bishop, considering her a suspect as a consequence of
the information given against her, arrested her, ordering
her to surrender herself immediately at the Castle des Allemans,
and to go to the dungeons of My said Lord Bishop, and to not
leave without his authorization and his order.
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After which, in the year of our Lord 1320, the 11th of August,
the said Guillemette, appearing in the Chamber of the bishopric
of Pamiers in the presence of My said Lord Bishop attended
by Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, said and confessed:
Three years ago the next grape-harvesting
season, I was in my garden at Ornolac, and I fell to the ground
from a wall and hurt my nose, to the point that blood came
out of it. When I fell, Gentille, the daughter of the late
Guillaume Rous of Ornolac, came
to help me, and as I saw that blood was coming out of my nose,
I said: "The soul, the soul! The soul is but blood."
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A year ago at the end of April, when
the elms were beginning to put out their leaves, I was under
the elm of Ornolac, which is near the land of Pierre Bordas
of Ornolac, I do believe. We were speaking together, saying
that one must do good, life enduring,
for one's soul, and that one must fear God for the salvation
of one's soul. I said then that the soul of the man and the
woman is but blood, and that when the man or the woman dies,
their soul dies also.
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That year, around Easter, Raimond Benet
had a newborn child who was dying. He called me, when I was
going to the woods in the forest, so that I could look after
his dying son. I looked after him from morning to night, and
I was watching if I could see something come out of the child's
mouth when he died. As I saw nothing come out except an exhalation,
I said, in front of Gentille den Rous, already subpoenaed:
"Watch, watch, when a man dies, you don't see anything
but wind come out of his mouth. If I saw something else come
out, I would believe that the soul is something. But since
only wind came out, I do not believe that it is anything."
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Did you say these words about the soul
in possession of all your senses, and believing
this in your heart, in the meaning of these words?
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Yes, and I have believed it for two
years, although I have not remained continuously in this belief,
only intermittingly. It seems to me that it was during a half
a year, in those two years, that I was of that opinion, believing
that the human soul was nothing
but blood when the man lives in his body, and that it would
die when the man or the human body dies.
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At the time when you believed that
the human soul dies with the body, did you believe
that there was a hell or a heaven, or that souls were punished
or rewarded after death?
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During that time, I did not believe
that there was a hell or a heaven, or any other world but
the present; I also believed that souls would
not be punished or rewarded in the other world.
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Why did you believe that the human
soul was but the blood of the
living man, and that it would die with the body?
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Firstly, I believed it because I saw
that when all the blood has left the body of a living thing,
it dies. I believed it secondly because I didn't see anything
come out of the men who were dying, except wind.
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During the time when you were in this
believe about the mortality of the soul, did you believe that
the souls of saint Peter, Paul, and of the other saints and
of all deceased men were dead'
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| Yes, except that I always
believed in the existence of God, of the Virgin Mary, and of
Saint John the Evangelist, for the Virgin Mary and Saint John
neither died, nor were killed7. But for the others, some died,
and some were even killed. |
In the Middle Ages, it was commonly
believed that Mary or John were not dead, but asleep. |
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From the moment that you believed that
human souls die with the body,
did you believe that men would be resurrected or would live
again after death?
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I did not believe in the resurrection
of human bodies, for I believed
that just as the body is buried, the soul is also buried with
it. And as I saw the human body rot, I believed that it could
never live again.
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| Did you have someone who
taught this to you, did you learn it from someone? |
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No. I thought it over and believed
it by myself.
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| Do you believe that the
soul of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, is dead or with
his body? |
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Yes, for, although God cannot die,
Jesus Christ died, all the same. Therefore, although I believed
that God has always been, I did not believe that Christ's
soul lived and subsisted after
his death.
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| Do you believe then that
Christ was resurrected' |
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| Yes, and it is God who did
that. |
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Do you currently believe that the human
soul is anything other than blood, that it does not die at
the death of the body, that it is not buried with the body,
that there is a hell and a heaven, where souls are punished
or rewarded, and there will be a resurrection of all men,
and that the soul of Christ did not die with his body?
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Yes, and I have believed it since the
last holiday of the Ascension of the Lord because at that
time I heard tell that My Lord the Bishop of Pamiers wanted
to carry out an investigation against me about it. I was afraid
of My Lord Bishop because of that, and I changed my opinion
after that time.
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The unfortunate Guilemette is clearly not
as sophisticated as another rationist woman, Aude, brought
before the Inquisition
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After which, in the same year as above, the 3rd of September…(the
reading of her deposition, the recantation, and the confiscation
of her person and her goods, the conclusion)8.
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Accomplished the same day as above, in the presence of My Lord Bishop; of Brother Gaillard de Pomiès, the substitute
for the Inquisitor of Carcassone; of My Lord Jean de Lastours,
the rector of the Church of Comus9 in the diocese of Alet;
and of me, Guillaume Peyre-Barthe, the notary of My Lord Bishop,
who has written that which precedes.
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After which, in the same year as above, the 5th of March,
the said Guillemette, appearing judicially in the presence
of My said Lord Bishop and the religious person Father Jean
de Beaune of the order of the Preaching Friars, Inquisitor
of the heretical deviation in the kingdom of France appointed
by the Apostolic Seat, in the Episcopal Chamber, under the
faith of the sworn oath, said and recognized that the extract
of her confession, read to her intelligibly and in the common
tongue, as well as the confession given by her before My Lord Bishop, as it is contained here above, were true and of fact,
and contained the truth, that she wanted to continue and persist
in these extract, confession, and depositions, never here
contravening nor proposing any defenses by which the said
extract, confession, and depositions could be broken or in
any way revoked. And she submitted herself to the will and
mercy of the said lords bishop and Inquisitor, and renounced
and concluded as above.
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And my said lords bishop and Inquisitor assigned her a day
to hear her definitive sentence on the aforesaid events, being
the following Sunday the 8th of March, before tierce, in the
house of the Preaching Friars of Pamiers.
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Accomplished the year and day above, in the presence of the
religious persons My Lord Germain de Castelnau, archbishop
of the Church of Pamiers; of Brother Pierre, companion of
My said Lord Inquisitor; and of us, Guillaume Peyre-Barthe,
notary of My Lord Bishop, and Barthélemy Adalbert,
notary of My Lord Inquisitor of Carcassonne, who received
and wrote the said confession, in the presence of the witnesses
above named at this convened.
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The which Sunday fixed for the said Guillemette by My Lords
bishop and Inquisitor, she appeared in the cemetery of Saint
John the Martyr of Pamiers, and they then pronounced sentence
to her as it follows: "Know all, etc." See this
sentence in the Book of Sentences of the Inquisition10.
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Guillemette spent three years immured in
the Wall at Carcassonne, after which she was released, but
obliged to wear yellow crosses
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| And I, Rainaud Jabbaud… |
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NOTES:
1. "Idiot, idiot!"
2."The soul, the soul."
3. "My good woman (lit. virtuous woman), preserve
your soul!" "Idiot, idiot, what soul? The soul is nothing
more than blood." This opinion, which here results in simple
disbelief, was introduced by Catharism (already in Alain de Lille,
op.cit., P.L., t. CCX, c. 328), according to which the human composite
was formed of the body, soul, and spirit, in accordance with ideas
already widespread for some time among the Fathers of the Church.
The spirit, which is of celestial origin and the work of the Good
Lord, will return to heaven at the end of time. That is the soul
of everyday language. As for this soul that is only blood, according
to Leviticus (17,11), incidentally, it is that which animates the
body, the simple vital instinct (cf. see the myth of the ass' head
in the deposition of Pierre Maury).
4. Formula T.
5. "The soul, the soul! Personally, I don't
see anything come out of men or women when they die. If I saw the
soul or some other thing come out, I would know what the soul is,
but so far I haven't seen anything come out, and that is why I don't
know what the soul is."
6. Formula T
7. According to Catharism, Mary and John the Evangelist
were messengers from heaven, even, in Mary's sake, a symbol of the
Church. According to very ancient orthodox opinions, which doubtlessly
still survived in the Middle Ages, one referred to not the death
of Mary and John, but to their "dormition."
8. Formulas A and C
9. A commune in the canton of Belcaire, in Aude.
10. Not preserved. She was condemned at the Wall,
her sentence commuted to the wearing of double crosses, July 4th,
July 1322 (Hist. Inquisitionis, p. 294). Ed. latine, I, p. 260-267.
Translation by Dareth Pray, San José State University,
2006 - to whom many thanks for permission to reproduce this text.
NOTES
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